Refreshing to here John and Mike more outspoking on some of the issues surrounding the performance of the Mayo team and management.Sometimes this pod can be guilty of been too careful in saying whats really is on the publics mind in comparison to the Ah ref podcast.
Johns point on how we didnt foul any Dublin player for the last kickout like Dublin did in 2017, shows that we have not learned anything, I think we have to many choir boys and its time to for Rochford and McStay if they are to stay on to really scour the County for a certain type of player.Its basically James Horans panel thats there now.Nothing has changed only a slower build up play and not been able to close out games.The whole thing needs a shake up if Kevin is to stay on next season.

Listened to podcast and felt John summarised nicely the frustration out there mainly lack of progress in team this year and frustration of not heeding lessons of past.

Agree on the importance of midfield and having powerful players out there. Not sure there is a player like John Maher or Cian Darcy out there within Mayo at club level to progress into Mayo. Why have we stopped producing strapping ball winning midfielders?!

Great to hear Mike offering his opinions, he's more informed than most pundits out there - I know he can't do it when commentating but more of that please!

The midfield conversation is baloney though. Where are stats to say that Mayo are lacking at midfield or this based one Ciaran Kilkenny catch? From my recollection of the season Mayo did really well at midfield, including against Galway in Salthill and Galway have so much height in that area. Where Mayo lack is physicality in the tackle amongst certain players. Conor Loftus is incredibly weak in the tackle, as are Jack Coyne and Rory Brickenden. Ryan isn't great either but he's usually smart enough to stay out of contact.

I agree it's depressing how few new players were developed this year. Next year Sean Morahan needs to be tried at corner back.

Kerry county board are moving their club championship forward to start at the end of July following their elimination last Saturday at the all Ireland semi final stage.
Meanwhile here in mayo we were knocked out weeks ago and won’t start ours until late august. Wasting the best 7 or 8 weeks of the year of weather and dry pitches.
How come Kerry can take advantage of the split season like this but we can’t?

It's absolutely ridiculous mayojoe. The best weather of the year being kept for league football while championship is being left until Autumn with final being played the weekend the clocks change normally. Crazy stuff.

The situation with our midfield is that jack carney and Matt ruane win very little clean ball in midfield.you don’t need stats to see that .when we are under pressure on our kickout we have no out ball unless Aidan o Shea comes into that area .when we had the o sheas Tom parsons and Barry Moran around that area we generally overpowered the opposition in that sector.look at the last kickout in salthill this year and the shambolic end in salthill last year where we couldn’t get a kickout away and end up hanging on for dear life in a game where we were 5 points up with the wind .i saw this daftness posted on here a few times this year that you don’t need ball winners in midfield because the game has changed.well Galway used their big men last Sunday as a serious platform to attack.I don’t actually consider this to be a great Galway team but they will probably be good enough to win this all Ireland.unfortunately I don’t see any potential dominant type midfielder in our panel at the minute but it’s now an area of great concern

Jason Gibbons still the best mid fieder in Mayo.

Agree with 1985 on the midfield. You have to be strong in all areas and midfield no different. It’s a great platform for possession higher up the pitch and puts pressure on opposition too on their kick outs

With Ruane and Carney at the minute, got me, there is a lack of aggression, power and aerial ability. Carney has it in him to win more ball in the sky but haven’t seen enough of it. I’d prefer Flynn out there

@mayo joe. As James O Donogue pointed out its mostly down to the fact that Kerry have 2 championships a club championship and a county championship. They have a lot ,a lot of club fixtures, wether that's right or wrong is a different thing. History dictates it's served them well. Not to many Kerry lad's going to America . Championship dates set early is a good thing cause players know exactly in advance when it's happening even if it does leave a big gap when the county team are knocked out early.
Can't wait for club championship now especially intermediate and junior. Unfortunately I think the senior championship is over coached and way too defensive leading to harder to watch game's. That's not a problem exclusive to Mayo either it's nationwide. Big coaching teams under pressure to prove themselves by going out not to loose 1st before concentrating on winning. Death by analysis.

I’m sorry Richie but that’s not a good enough reason to waste the prime playing month of the year.
The mayo club championships should be all over by the 20th of Sept. Should have started in mid July. Give supporters and players a chance to watch and play the biggest club games of the year on a decent sod and in good weather in late summer/early autumn.
The only winners from the split season have been North American GAA teams. An exhibition league.
It’s bad enough that the split season resulted in the intercounty games being crammed into too short a timeframe, but then we are still starting and finishing our club championships at the exact same time as it always was regardless. Lose/lose scenario.

I agree with the opening poster that this blog is too careful and shuts down criticism too easily. It’s not being personal to say a particular player is not up to standard or needs improvement etc. So come on WJ all of ye were spot on in that podcast so allow some latitude here

And I should have included management when I said player above

But Mayo_Joe a part of the reason for the split season was that club championships had a definite start date, and it wasn't determined on when Mayo are out of the championship. The supporters have absolutely no say on this & rightly so. The players are behind it & that's all that matters. It would be completely unfair to set a start date for let's say start of August, and then decide to change it to July because Mayo are out. It's not fair on lads who finally have clarity.

I would suggest the Mayo CCCCCCCCC bring back the start date to beginning of August going forward.

I don’t accept that at all, Mayo67.

If you really believe that critical comments have been shut down too easily here, then you’re clearly not following the comments all that closely! I don’t allow personal abuse and do what I can to prevent people repeatedly running with particular agendas. I ask for a bit of common decency in what’s posted. And I make no apology for stopping lazy-minded armchair critics claiming that particular players aren’t good enough.

That still leaves very wide latitude for contributors to post comments of a critical nature, which many do. It’s a balancing act, for sure, and I’d be the first to admit that I often get that balance wrong but I do believe that the even-tempered debate that generally happens here suggests that I’m not off the mark balance-wise all of the time either.

There are plenty of other places online where discussion is unmoderated and the muck spewed there is plain for all to see. I’ve no desire to see the blog go down that road and I doubt that regular contributors on here would like to see that happen either.

Critical comments ARE often shut down here, but on balance, they're not shut down by WJ, who is fair and lets a lot of borderline stuff go (and people forget that this is not his full-time job). But critical comments getting shut down here has been an issue since the blog began. Anyone who wants to be realistic about our repeated failings over the years is inevitably told that they are negative, they should stay at home, they have given up, they have no idea what sacrifices the players make, that sure aren't we great for running Dublin/Kerry/Galway.whoever so close etc. So they stop posting or, like myself, they post an awful lot less than they used to. There's no point. The Positivity Police don't want to hear it.

Yeah DavyJ agreed, I think Willie Joe strikes the right balance in moderation, ie allowing constructive criticism within reason.

It's some of the regular posters (cheerleaders!) who are worse when it comes to shutting down robust debate on here.

These posters won't allow any sort of robust debate and believe management/players to be
utterly infallible and above any kind of critical analysis. It's basically cheerleading and serves nobody any good, no other county does it and it doesn't make you a superior fan.

The fact is we have been eliminated now in the past 3 years in a pQf against a demoralized derry outfit and 2 hammering in quarter finals the previous 2 years. Obviously something is going wrong somewhere and that requires self reflection and proper robust analysis of the players/management.

Tiresome when same posters grasp for other excuses, the calendar structures/the ref/ the dublin media/ the injuries /bad luck. All nonsense

I see more of that deluded soft talk too about Armagh/Galway being lucky to be in a final, absolute nonsense, both have gotten through the hardest possible routes and had to deal with injuries to key players

Is a fair point that we need to be looking more towards what the four semi final teams did this year in terms of approach?
The trying to win the ball high up the field that we do, we're the only top tram doing that and it leaves 1 v 1 wide open at the back.
Also how those teams seem to have attacking plays like Armagh.

Fair enough WJ

I am looking for 2 All Ireland hurling final tickets on account of the Mrs is from Clare

Both Armagh and Galway had an element of luck to win last weekend but crucially they took it with open arms.
Kerry had 14 wides and about 4 into goalies hand
When 4 up they missed an open goal, then they went 5 up and still lost.
If that was Mayo we would be called Chokers.
When the Donegal match was 1.11 to 14 Thompson put 2 balls in a row into the goalie's hand.
Owen Ban was then injured and Mc Brearty inexplicably taken off.
They missed a 13 m free after.
Joyce won the battle on the line , allowed Donegal free kick outs and they tired themselves out continually solo running up the field.
Galway in contrast kicked out long and won 20 out of 21.

Where do ye suggest we get these big strong midfielders? If they're not in the county or not willing to commit then as the saying goes "you can only dance with the girls in the hall" and it's up to management to make use of what we have. Every evening I go herding I'd love to have 800kg charolais bullocks but i have to do with the 500kg aberdeen angus bullocks in the field and I have to make the most of them.

JP
For me the main takeaways from looking at the 2 finalists is the strength of their squads/benches and some very brave management calls made by both.

The tough run has really stood to both teams in getting their best team out, Armaghs starting team has changed significantly since ulster campaign. Since the ulster final guys like Grimley, McCambridge, McElroy have all been given their chance and grabbed it with both hands. They now boast a serious squad with guys like Campbell, oisin o neill, jarly og burns, duffy mcquillan all guaranteeing an impact from the bench. The training matches must be savage competitive. By comparison you feel the Mayo management have their first 15 decided upon for the year more or less and the first couple of subs too.

McGeeney has been absolutely ruthless in his calls. He whipped off Rian o'neill (a player of the year candidate) against roscommon after 40 minutes as he was playing sh1te. Aidan nugent came on against kerry, got turned over twice and McGeeney ruthlessly whipped him off again. He has managed to keep his squad happy and competitive by being ruthless

Similarly in Galway they suddenly find themselves with a very deep strong squad. Hard to know how much of that was through luck or judgement given how his hand was forced with injuries in the league but they now have a bench with bags of experience and impact. Heaney/molloy/daly/flaherty/darcy represents a very good bench. You wonder if a mayo management would be strong enough to bench 2022 allstar noms as Joyce has done with Daly/Molloy

So lesson learned is we have to use our league campaign to build a squad. Not just stick with the same 16-17 players all year round. There is absolutely no point in playing lads like AOS/Coen/Durcan etc in the league who we know all about. We need to be in a place where we are comfortable with replacing AOS with 15 mins to go without the whole county losing their minds.

A pity Jason gibbons was born in the wrong era as he would be a key man on that team now

...also there was the occasion where Joyce whipped off shane walsh against sligo and confirmed it was because he was playing sh1te.

Could you imagine the outcry in Mayo if a talisman was whipped off ruthlessly like that. Its about making the ruthless decisions not the popular ones

Jason Gibbons is a good footballer but he had his time with Mayo .
Reality is that the current extended panel has the best footballers in the county on it from what I saw in the club championship.
I certainly didn't see any mid fielders at club level ahead of Mattie , Jack or Flynn .
High fielding / primary possession is key at mid field.
We never got a replacement in that regard for Tom Parsons but that's not faulting the lads efforts which were savage this year

Let's hope and pray none of Jim gavins new frc rules come in that rewards shooters (ie 2 points for a score outside the 40) because we are goosed if that comes in.

We have nobody on the team (maybe ryan at a push) to bang over screamers from distance like the ones Rian o neill and Langan scored at the weekend

We go on about midfielders and how there is a lack of them in the county but when you look at things logically, are we training midfielders correctly? The same argument we make about our forwards. Other than Gibbons, I can’t name one consistent high fielder of a ball. It’s a beautiful skill that is better by neglected by coaches and managers across the county. The two teams in the AI final have the biggest middle 8 in the county each. Galway’s long kick out killed Donegal last weekend. Armagh have great fielders around there too. Dublin in their pomp had Howard, Fenton, Kilkenny and McCarthy all well able to pull ball from the sky. David Moran was a natural at it in Kerry. We have a problem in mayo that we don’t work on it. Barry Moran is probably our last known midfielder comfortable in the air. Parsons and Seamus O’Shea were ok at it but it wasn’t their main skill. And yet we have made no effort to find one or two rugged ball winning players around the middle.

Tom parsons main skill from a very young age was high fielding.Sheamus o Shea was very difficult to jump against as if he didn’t win it his opponent wouldn’t find it very difficult.Matt ruane for a fairly big man is extremely poor in the air and all opposition are now aware of it .There isn’t an immediate solution as we just don’t have those sort of players at the minute but no matter how much the games changes or evolves you will always need big men down the middle.I think it was John maughan who said in 2005 that you can’t coach height in relation to I think it was Shane fitzmaurice

Our system (and that of Kerry and Dublin) is completely different from the systems of Galway, Donegal, Armagh.
Rian O’Neill and Shane Walsh being whipped off (subbed) without remorse makes sense in the game these teams play where every score counts, each point is hard earned and precious, because it is hard to score against heavily defensive teams. An ineffective player can be seen as costing the team the possibility of scores. We saw at the end of the Donegal v Galway match how ruthlessly the teams defended against scores and how each point counted. O’Neill and Walsh understand this and buy into it.
Supermac, if 2 points are awarded for long range points, it might open up space and Mayo thrive in this. All we need are a few to go over and it might make opposing teams abandon the strong defensive shape. How would we react if a team was scoring long range points against us? Genuine question - I’m trying to get my head around it.

Whatever new rules come in or not, we better be prepared to adapt to them. I hope the player limits in each half comes in, because it will automatically create space for our attack. Coaches need to adapt quickly because there could be a chance for another surprise team to win it out. Galway are tailor made for the patient, defensive stuff. We are not. But with more space, it might suit us.

Another thing Armagh do really well is the use of their bench. There is not a chance that a player as good as Soupy would be on our bench. He would start & run down blind alleys for us, but instead he comes on when the game opens up & makes hay. It's a squad game & it's something we've never really addressed

I suppose the thing about Mayo players being able to kick long range points,or not,is we don't know because they weren't allowed/encouraged to have a go. I think Jordan, Tommy,Ryan,and Fergal certainly have the range.
This has probably been debated here since our exit(I haven't been tuning in much) but my main hope for '24,and there are plenty,but when we do reel a team in like we've done in our '3' big games, I'll call them,we get the door partially open,all that's needed is to give it the shoulder ans burst it open and head for glory... it's there for us, but no we turn back in to the dark corner. Jesus it's beyond frustrating and it's not in a natural footballers framework. You get your opportunity. Grab it and deal the deal. Trying to just fall over the line I can't understand.
Who'll win the final...who cares.

If the new rules are quite a large change there's a high possibility next year's All Ireland winner is the team that researched and coached it best.
The research phase needs to be data driven.

2 hops, I would like to adopt this as my motto in life:
“ when we do reel a team in like we’ve done in our ‘3’ big games… we get the door partially open,all that’s needed is to give it the shoulder ans burst it open and head for glory…”
Hurray! I totally agree.
Those Aberdeen Angus bullocks referenced earlier would do the same thing, tails flying.

2 Hops I am in complete agreement. Those lads you mentioned will shoot regularly for their clubs. Looks to me like they are being encouraged not to shoot. Goal posts are the same size on every pitch. It's very disheartening to see.

I think you've hit the nail on the head regarding the Derry & Galway games. We tried to fall over the line. When have you ever seen Kerry or Dublin in their pomp fall over the line? They go out and bloody win the game when it's there to be won. Our approach is so frustrating

You can’t just move the club championship forward. There is a case it could be starting a week or two earlier but you can’t change dates just because Mayo are out.

Teams were told at the start of the year these dates were set in stone. Players and management have holidays booked, weddings, some clubs have 5/6 players over in the US. To change the dates would cause mayhem.

Club players have been training away since the start of the year. The final round of league games are this weekend and then it’s into the playoffs for some teams. One month until championship. Also as for playing games in the “good weather”…where is this good weather?

Them hopes of mine are for '25 obviously and *seal the deal. doh!

In a clip from one of John O'Mahony's interviews, he depicted the differences (euphoria and utter devastation), between winning and losing on AI final day.
We should always admire the courage of all teams that put everything (heart and soul), into those 70 plus minutes.
A quote from McBeth always enters my head when Galway are about to contest a final.
"Hear it not, Duncan, for it is a knell
That summons thee to heaven or to hell.".
Best of luck to both teams.

I agree with swallow swoops in that it was our system of play more than anything that landed us in the soup this year. Characterised by slow build up, how many passes did it take us to get the ball to the half way line?, predictability, ultra cautious, failing to utilize our trump card in AOS as a 50-50 ball winner. And probably our worst fault, working the ball close to goals before shooting.
I expect rule changes will try to bring back skills that have been lost in the modern handball version of football. Fielding in middle of field, scoring from distance and moving the ball forward at pace.
And I agree with most posters it will be a case of adapting to survive

who is McBeth?a midfielder, maybe.

Macbeth By William Shakespeare

Best of luck to Galway. Definitely my team of the championship. Armagh have been great and really exposed kerry reliance on the Clifford King. But Galway have class throughout and, as a long suffering Mayo man I bow my head and wish them the very best.
Go n-éirí leis na Gaillimhí...
Gaillimh abú

Galway have definitely improved as the year went on. Winning tight games is great for momentum and morale and I would expect them to win the final too but in fairness Armagh have had a great season also. Losing Div 2 final was their only defeat. Lost on penalties to Donegal in Ulster final ( a joke of a way to decide a football match) and showed great resolve to put it behind them. They were excellent v Kerry but got a few breaks. Trailed by 5 and got a fortuitous goal and then pushed on. Trailed by 5 to Galway as well before an error from Galway goalie allowed a way back for them. In fairness they hang in there and if the opportunity comes around they grasp it. I do think Galway are more reliable though, a very good defensive system and some excellent forwards. I feel Armagh will need to really go after them, but Galway are patient and have finished strongly in most of their games. Finals can take on a life of their own and luck will probably play a huge part. Remember all 3 goals in semi finals came from poorly executed shots for points.

Not to jump the gun or anything but next yrs campaign looks fascinating indeed. So many sides with so much to prove Dubs, Kerry, Donegal and Mayo.

I wonder if the group format will be retained next year. Does anyone know what the system is after the provincial championships and before the semi finals? Group, backdoor?
That could be significant for us (in a good way).

Any chance of 1 or 2 All Ireland hurling final tickets as the Mrs is from Clare

@Swallow Swoops I believe the GAA are considering a reform next year & the group stage as it stands is unlikely to be retained.

Have heard some talking about moving towards a format used in Kerry Championship. I've no idea what that would be like, perhaps Gamechanger or some of the Kerry contributors might be able to explain it.
Have also heard talk of a return to the old back door format (but running alongside the Tailteann Cup too, so would be less teams in it).
Some have mentioned Provincial Winners going straight to quarter finals, with the remaining quarter finalists determined form a 4 groups of 3 format.

So it could literally be anything!

i am one of the biggest critics of the current structure, but think it might work with some obvious & substantial tweaks.

I’d say next year will probably be similar to this year but I expect there will not be any preliminary quarter finals with the top 2 teams in each group going through. Also I would think they might take the quarter finals out of Croke Park and use provincial venues instead. Possibly give top team in each group the home advantage, venue sizes permitting or at least allow them to nominate their chosen venue. Small crowds in Croke Park is not ideal and attendances have been down a bit this year. There is also talk of introducing a third tier in football championship and I think the GAA is in correspondence with CO boards to see what they think.

Mayo Focus and To Win Just Once, thank you.

I didn’t like the Super 8s or this year’s format much - and there were player welfare issues in it - but I agree that some sensible changes to it could add a lot.

Ya Swallow, I think the idea of more games between the top teams is great in theory. If they keep it for next year, it has to be 2 to qualify. And as Win Just Once alluded to, why not offer Group Winners a home quarter final. They keep banging on about jeopardy but there are ways to fix this:

1. The 2 winning teams from opening round robin games (if applicable) to play each other in 2nd gameweek. This ensures at least 1 of the 3rd round group games has something on the line

2. Relegate the team who finishes 4th for the following year's championship (and allow them an opportunity to qualify if they win following year's province or something like that).

I think it might be worth persisting with but the preliminary has to go. It's an abomination, "lack of jeopardy or not"

@tsudhonim.are you still out there?

Could be bad news for Galway in the final, same ref as 2022 final.

Bate the blanket - He was referee in their round robin game, thought if anything he favoured Galway that day with a few 50/50 calls going their way, especially the free on 70th minute against Aaron McCay to put Galway one up.

Going back to 22 final don't know if Joyce objected to Hurson as referee prior to match day,as kerry coach Paddy Tally is with same Tyrone Club as Sean Hurson.
To me you are in the zone,'hail fellow well meet'

Easily the best podcast in a long, long time. I echo those who say that it was refreshing to hear such honest and fair criticism. It's the first time, in my opinion, where I have come away from listening, thinking 'that's bang on the money in terms of the overall mood within the county'.

Fair play to Rob who admitted to being wrong about his impression earlier in the season that we weren't contenders. I always believed we were and maintain that if our strategy and approach was right that it could easily be Mayo at the business end of the championship. There has been no standout team for the past three years and there doesn't appear to be any team who will dominate over the rest of this decade, but don't for one minute thing that winning an All Ireland will be anything but tough. We are in the pack, but with lots of others. I expect Kerry to be back sooner rather than later with a re-energised and more bullish team mentality. Dublin, on their day will be able to beat any team and Galway will be around too, although Conroy, Comer and Walsh are coming toward the end of their intercounty careers. It's clear to anyone tuned in, that Ulster teams are really on the rise. Armagh have a relatively young side. Tyrone will be back within another two/three years; Derry have a tonne of underage players coming through to add to their already strong senior side and you can be absolutely sure that Donegal will be a really tough team beat in 2025. It wouldn't surprise me to see them in a final next year. Imagine what another year under Jimmy will do for them. It's very similar to 2011-12.

One problem for Mayo is that by getting tanked in two QF's, and not even making it to Croke Park in 2024, we run the risk of falling into the 'not battle-hardened' category, where too many of players will be raw and inexperienced of 'big days' in Croke Pk. While the goal in 2025 has to be to win the All Ireland (as it should be every year), I'd say that reaching the last 4 is an absolute imperative for management to stay on for a 4th season.

Defence:- WJ is spot on and exactly what I had said about our defence just not set up well enough, compared to the other top teams. For me this is the absolute priority area for 2025. We must become far more watertight. I'm not sure management are picking the right players or getting the right tune out of players. Take Enda Hession as an example. I'd say if he was with Galway he'd be buzzing and a guaranteed starter. I have question marks over Brikenden and Coyne. For me, I'm not seeing enough from them. Why weren't others given opportunities in the NFL?? Mgnt needs to have a real think about tigerish, tight defenders. I also think Callinan's progression plateaued this year. Like, is he a fullback line player or HB line player? Management need to give him one role and let him at it. One thing he definitely needs work on is his vision and decision making when in possession. Runs into traffic too much.

Management have to do something about leadership on the field. Not enough of our lads are 'stepping up to to plate'. Leadership skills are enhanced by giving lads more game time and responsibility - with clearly defined roles.

Midfield:- The lads on the pod bemoaned us not having players like John Maher. I've played football with him. He's a really solid guy, but I'd be shocked if there aren't players in Mayo who aren't similar. Tall, athletic, rangy 'box to box' type lads. I actually think if John was from Mayo, there's a chance he'd have slipped through the net or be a peripheral player, but Joyce & O'Neill stuck with him and he has rewarded their trust. Jack Carney needs to take a leaf from his book and get the engine going and forget this uber-cautious sideways shit. Jordan Flynn has proven himself, to a degree. And what I mean by that is that he has had MOTM performances for Mayo but has he done it when it really matters?? I'm not certain. He still has a bit to go and I'm sure both these fellas think there's a good bit more in them. There needs to be. Carney especially! Management need to look out for lads 6'2+ and have a real look around the county this autumn. Speaking of tall fella's. Tuohy is someone who needs to start putting his weight around in the county championship in the middle of the park. The honeymoon period is over for Bob.

The lads also referenced McStay's 'definition of insanity'... and it was interesting to hear Mike touching on the point that by his reckoning, very little retrospection has taken place in Mayo after championship exits over the past decade plus and that instead we revert to the 'we'll be back next year' stuff. That's absolutely shocking, if true. The facts are since 1951, we've had 73 years of failure. And what are we (and it falls on the County Board) doing to remedy this? For a football mad county with an absolute and unrivaled craving for an All Ireland, we have failed dismally. There is something seriously wrong because this desire for success does not spill over into the structures we have and how these are operated. We have no Centre of Excellence, which AOS alluded to on a recent podcast. We have won one All Ireland minor title in this century. We have two u20/21's. In 2025 it'll be 8 years since we were even provincial winners at this grade .....and we wonder why we are failing?! Where is the organistion? Where's the leadership? Where's the innovation?? It has to come from the top and county board executives have failed, year after year. There is not enough genuine deep analysis and from the outside looking in, it just feels like there's way too much of a 'pals club' at the top end of Mayo football and it's been that way for years. That, or the people calling the shots just aren't performing at the level required.

With the passion, interest and desire in Mayo, we should have one of the best academy structures in the country. We don't. No where near it. Results prove that. On top of having a streamlined academy programme, Mayo should have a National Schools initiative which focuses on skills enhancement (aside from the standard Cumann na Bunscoil stuff that every county has). As far as I am aware, no county does much on this and so it would be a great opportunity for Mayo. Doing so would significantly increase the skill level of kids going into our second level colleges. These Mayo schools need to start genuinely competing for Hogan Cup's. We are well off the pace nationally and shouldn't be. There's no excuse for it now that Jarlath's dominance is gone and boys from Mayo no longer attend there. Is there someone at co board level with responsibility for second level schools? St Geralds are best placed given their numbers, Colman's not far behind. They need to do even more. Winning provincials is a start but it's not sufficient for Mayo schools or county teams. The aim must be national success. Anything else falls short and until this mindset changes and until it's no longer deemed acceptable to lose All Ireland semi final's and finals, then we will just continue to fall short. The mentality needs to be different.

Ultimately, nothing will change until the powers that be in Mayo come up with a coherent, innovative and ambitious plan. We need to think outside the box and look to be leaders, rather than just replicating and trying to keep up with other counties. We need to get to a point where others, nationally, are looking at Mayo thinking, 'look at their success, why can't we be like them?'

Good detailed post Mayonaze and lots of valid points made.You are right about there being no standout team this year and Armagh and especially Galway have improved as the year developed. I thought our defence was a bit better this year but losing P Durcan was a big blow. It is true to say though that we are not water tight nor do we possess really tigerish mean defenders. Not sure Hessian falls into that bracket either. Would love to see some big strong man at midfield. Tyrone had 2 in 2021, Donegal have Langan , Kerry O Connor and Galway are blessed with a lot of physicality in that area. For me the biggest disappointment once again are the forwards. Our half forward line does not contribute enough, Tommys form was patchy, Aiden had a good year but doesn’t trouble the score board much so lots falls on Ryan. In fairness he usually delivers but when held we are in bother. We still struggle against a massed defence. We are ok when let play, but that won’t happen at the business end and Derry stopped us easily. Our underage success has dried up as has our school teams so that’s not good going forward. Interesting point about primary schools. We do need a centre of excellence and dedicated training pitches which seems to be an issue. I definitely think this management should continue as I thought Mayo for all their problems were better this year than last. Only defeated once in championship by an injury time point to the team who should win Sam. Lots to do but the mountain can be scaled.

Mayonaze,, if you'd prefer Jack Carney not to play ' uber cautious sideways shit ', Who should he listen to first , supporters or management ?

If they want him to play this way, that's the way he will play. I'm sure he doesn't want to jeopardise his place in the team just to please fans

John Maher wasn't on the Galway panel in 2022. He was brought back in on the recommendation of his club manager, John O'Mahony after a good club campaign. There are five different players from the 2022 final. Maher, Cein D'Arcy who was brought back this year after an impressive run last year with Ballyboden, Johnny McGrath, who was minor captain in 19 and a sub in 22 and Sean Mulkerrin who was a water carrier after a broken knee cap in that years Sigerson.

Good well thought out Mayonaze. I agree with you and in particular leadership skills.
Even subs that came on for both Galway and Armagh were fired up guys, brought on to win the game for their counties.
We have no shortage of possible leaders, Sam Calinan, Carney, McHugh, McBrein, just to mention a few, but they do need the proper encouragement.
Leadership from the sideline is an other matter. The micro coaching of players is not the answer, players needy to be given the belief that they can be Gamechangers, greater freedom and trust and responsibility

So just to be clear we haven't properly addressed why we haven't won Sam for all these years? We've just gone with the "we'll be back next year" approach. And we wonder why we haven't won it? If a shred of that is true, that's absolutely pathetic carry on.

The massive one where I feel we are going wrong.
If you look at professional soccer, they damn well know the lads who 'have it' to play premier league or championship at ages 18/19.
We carry on as if it's some unknowable pure lottery. This then relies on the player himself presenting himself as senior ready at 20/21.
But with this lack of strategy we are really shrinking our senior ready pick.
Scenario.
A corner back, he's 5'10" 11 stone at U17, he could on a senior program mature to 5'11" 13 stone explosive.
He decides not to go to college he works as an apprentice in construction, gets into site lifestyle and plays junior with his club.
That player is now with almost certainty gone. We're not going to spot him playing junior and he doesn't need to push himself much at all especially having the difficult construction job.
Now an alternative scenario is where our senior talent spotting are putting some proper data togeher on the same player and projecting 6 years down the line when he enters his peak at 23.
We had a tall fielding minor midfielder in Padraig Prendergast but our senior program made no effort there. We weren't able to get an impact sub role from him after a few years development?
Our talent pipeline is basically amazing genetics like Oisin and Eoghan McLoughlin or really self driven players like Ryan O'Donoghue.
We have a look at a player after one winter of SnC and dismiss them based on FBD, challenge and training matches.
There's no fluke as to how Padraig Joyce and Kieran McGeeney have built out their squads.
Joyce and McGeeney would have rewarded Aaron McDonnell with more game time after the Derry league game.
Also, sorry but training matches my bloody arse.
I was seriously a strong Mayo minor if you just looked at my training matches. Couldn't transfer it to games at all.

Good post @ JP.

I’d just have concerns that our development programme from 17-21 isn’t anywhere near where it needs to be and the problem we have is that the lads running this think that it is. There appears to be very little accountability and instead a lot of back slapping and blinker-wearing! No provincial title at u20 in eight seasons says that we aren’t doing things right. Some might point to the players who have come through in recent years and that our panel is quite young. Ok, but are we bringing through the right ones and there are question marks over whether they are at the level required to win an All Ireland. I think we’re missing out on lads with really good potential but our system is porous and too many are slipping through the net. Even glancing at the u20 campaign this year, there were plenty of lads not involved who really should have been.

S&C is another clearly obvious concern.

I think an awful lot of supporters would love to hear a podcast dedicated to this topic:- the 17-21 year old category. One that critically examines this topic rather than just giving airtime to more of the usual self-promotion stuff. Ask the hard questions. Why have Mayo fallen back underage. Why do our teams look physically lighter, especially when we come out of Connacht (not that that’s happened at u20 level in a ridiculously long time). There needs to be much greater introspection on our underage system and that includes our schools. Mayo need to start winning national titles at underage IC and schools, because if we can get this right then our chances of landing Sam will significantly increase. James Horan had Mayo constantly competitive. That’s primarily due to the dominance we had at u21 level in the 2nd have of the ‘noughties’. People tend to forget that. We took our eye off underage and that’s why we’ve fallen back into the pack.

On the midfield debate.

There is a certain former two time young player of the year in Australia who has spent a lot of his time on the bench over there. He also hasn't made the match day panel for the last five games.

Might not be a perfect midfielder, but could could become an outstanding CB/ middle third player that would give a much needed helping hand to our midfield.

Why have Galway done so well at senior in recent seasons? Getting to a final two years ago and now on the cusp of winning Sam? Simple. There underage results have been better than ours and they have brought the talent through. They have been in 4 All Ireland Minor Finals since 2016, winning 1. We have contested 1 final in the same period, losing it.

In the last decade, Galway contested 4 All Ireland u20 Finals, winning 3. We contested 2, winning 1.

In this decade we've not even won Connacht at u20. Meanwhile, Galway have won 1 All Ireland, in 2020. The bulk of the current Galway team are made up of players from their 2017 (runners up) and 2020 (winners) teams with Comer and Walsh thrown in too from their u20 winning side of 2013. In Mayo, we actually had a very poor return from the group that won minor in 2013 and u21 in 2016. Name them...Diarmuid, Coen, Mattie. After this, Boland has done only ok. Loftus hasn't turned into the player we had hoped. Plunkett is peripheral and EOD to an even lesser degree. Then only 3 of our u20 2018 side have come through - ROD, Tommy, Flynn. (Diskin may still return), but none of the team that started that All Ireland Final numbered 1-8 are involved with Mayo now. Why?? Cathal Horan was immense. What happened him? PLaying with junior club certainly didnt help. Paul Lambert and Oisin McLaughlin both excelled that year. Now they are nowhere near the team.

*And we let Mullin slip off to AFL.

@PJ - he'd need to back in the next year (certainly 2026 season latest) if he has any ambition of reaching the heights with Mayo. When a player is gone for a number of years to AFL, it's proven that there's guarantee he will pick things up that easily at GAA. And if he does return , there'll be the usual silly hype, but he'll have plenty to prove. He was a very good young promising player but by no means was he the finished article. He still had lots of room for improvement. And on positioning, hadn't nailed down any place. Horan had him at no.3 - which clearly he wasnt comfortable with. He's a middle third player. Box to box.

*no guarantee

Our underage results have been sufficient to provide a talent pipeline. We drew with Galway u20 the year they won it.
2017 u21 we were crippled by injuries but were competitive.
We've got a poor enkigh return of quality players from 2017 u21 onwards.
A senior player is not high quality if they struggle with passing in high end championship.
Mgmt have been self congratulating on developing yet more defenders and wing forwards that can solo run but can't really pick a pass like Dylan McHugh.
The season really relied hugely on Aidan O'Shea and Ryan O'Donoghue pulling us through it.

JP, I'd agree with a lot of that but I really don't think our underage results, especially at u20 level have been anywhere near good enough over the past 5/6 years. In fact, they've been fairly horrendous to the point of arguably being in the 'couldn't get much worse' category. We have no excuses now with three provincial minor wins in 2022, 2023 and 2024, so it will surely be interesting to see how u20 goes over the coming seasons. I feel we are at a point where we really need a national title to boost morale and for some of these young lads to taste success.

Some very good posts above, we really need to understand what has declined in Mayo's underage structures over the past decade or so, the fall off in winning sides / sides that contested All Ireland's has been drastic, especially at U20.

In the 2000's, Mayo won 7 out of 10 Connacht U21 titles, they contested 3 All Ireland Finals, winning one, possibly unlucky not to win in 2004 as well. When you look back, the 2010's senior team was backboned by players from these U21 sides. They had all won together at underage. Contrast this with the 2010's, we won two U21/U20 Connacht titles, won an All Ireland and lost the other narrowly to Kildare. What has happened, why have we fallen off a cliff at this age group? Our showing against Sligo and Leitrim this year was a disgrace. Hard questions need to be asked about this. If we're not doing better at this age grade, we may forget about winning All Ireland's in the future.

Minor has slightly improved over the past three seasons in Mayo, we've won 3 in a row and maybe they will go on and win an U20, however, this years showing does not fill me with confidence. The current U20s are under huge pressure to deliver next year. Anything less than a Connacht title will not be good enough in my book.

Between 2000 and 2013, Mayo contested 5 All Ireland Minor Finals, winning 1. (They won 6 Connacht Minor titles in that period). Since 2013, 11 years ago, we have only contested All Ireland final, (2022), so from looking at these stats, we have also fallen away at this grade. Mayo were always known for having good underage teams and structures, what has happened, counties like Derry and Tyrone have overtaken us with smaller resources.

I believe we need a central COE in Mayo ASAP, a set location in the centre of the county that acts like a High Performance centre in terms of skills and general football development. This nonsense of an elite county going to clubs looking to borrow pitches for training is nonsense at this stage. A brand the size of Mayo GAA needs it's own permanent base. Look at Garvaghy in Tyrone and Owenbeg in Derry, two elite centres and both counties are seeing the rewards for having these facilities.

Some very hard questions need to be asked going forward. We had a very good senior team from 2011-2017 because that team was made up of underage winning sides. We have an average team now because the quality of player is not the same. We will have an even worse team in 5 years from now if we don't get our act together, especially at U20.

Despite the above, there is a serious opportunity to win a Senior All Ireland over the next couple of years, there is no outstanding team out there, Armagh and Galway are good, but no world beaters. (I believe the quality standards in Gaelic Football are at their lowest in 25 plus years). If we tweak a few things and set up a more solid defensive system, we can go all the way. Also, we need to get the likes of Mullin back on board, Galway have got a serious boost by McDaid coming back, (a footballer I rate very highly), we need the likes of Mullin back on board to increase / boost our chances.

Regarding this year's final, Galway will win by 3 or 4 and it'll be a long winter north of the Black River.

To be honest, I'd forget about Oisin Mullin. I don't believe he'll be back and even if he does come back, there's nothing to say that he'll capitalise on the potential he had. We shouldn't really be hoping for anything there.

Ah come on now pull the reins a little bit. I wouldn't call Galway "so competitive" over the last few years. As someone pointed out they have lost 4 finals in crokepark since 2021 and if they lose Sunday week it'll be 5 including 2 all irelands and 2 lesser games to their arch enemy, that's surely mayo territory. Time enough writing like that IF they win the final.

I really enjoy reading these discussions around the underage structures and how the lack of success can impact at senior level. My sense of an county underage teams (generally) is if it gets to an All Ireland final stage, there are usually 4-5 really highly talented players in that team that have scope to go higher on the inter county stage. If a team gets well beaten in their provincial championship, that pool of highly talented players might be 1-2

Are the structures wrong in Mayo or does it just simply hinge on what talent level comes along? For example, did Sean Deane do anything different with the 3 minor teams he had between 2021-2023 yet they varied in terms of their seasons. The 2022 minor team was the standout team based mostly on individual talent in there but I'm sure Sean Deane was setting each of the 3 teams up in a similar way. So on one side of the argument underage success can rely heavily on quality of players. This is what I fear, the quality just hasn't been there regularly enough in all underage teams. Does a player become a talent through simple genetics or expert coaching from a very young age? I was in St Jarlaths in the early 00s and witnessed the Hogan cup win in 2002. The approach to training teams in the school thereafter didn't change yet the success dried up as the talent level dropped

On the other side of the coin, I absolutely agree there is not enough analysis being done on the performance of underage teams and the management environment. Is there a high performance environment in our underage system between 17-20. Is there an U19 Development Squad and if so, what do they do? What happens to our 21-22 year olds who fall out of the u20 squad? What is the approach to S&C for all underage groups? These are all questions I'd like to hear more on

Also what is the ambition for the county overall? Is it to be consistently competitive as Horan coined or is to actually start winning All Ireland's?

Somebody mentioned Aaron mcdonald earlier. He had a great game v derry i think in the league and scored a good point but we didn't see him again. Does anyone know what happened?

Mcdonnell i meant to type

Some posters are 100% right that Oisin might not continue with the potential be had before he moved to Oz. Glass and McDaid have done alright since coming back. I don't think adjusting back to football over here will be an issue. It looks like he's not adjusting to Aussie Rules as quick as he liked.

The lack of impact off the bench ( apart from some nice scores from Loftus ) was a real concern for me. Some extra beef around the middle third would be great with some fresh faces on the match day 26.

Horan also played Leeroy in the FB line which says it all.

I was impressed with Aaron McDonald as well. Hopefully gets more game time

@Mayonaze, it's not as simple as that, every couple of years a strong batch of footballers come along in any one year, hit an miss type thing.

There could also be an issue at club level too ie, not enough good coaching at all clubs.

Dublin Gaa puth resources in the coaching camps, we see the Camogie standard has hugely lifted.

But the Dublin minor football was poor enough this year.

@Roco88, am I correct in saying that St Jarlaths had only one playing pitch in the School?

@Bate the blankett there were 5-6 pitches around the school in those times. Most of them were used for training. The centre pitch would host some games such as 1st year/Juvenille matches so perhaps you’d say it was a playing pitch but I don’t remember any match on the pitches with the Senior team

Roco88.....I was in SJC in the 1970s and we were spoiled with a few really good footballers from all over Ireland boarding and making teams that were very competitive. I believe the talent got thinner when boarding inevitably had to come to an end and reliance on an all day boy population from the local catchment ensued. The 6 pitches you mention were there in my time too and 5 were used for training and house league matches with the centre pitch near the school being the biggest and best and called 'senior pitch'......I recall inter-school challenges on that pitch but no County stuff....

@NoDoubt , Going all the way back to covid to a connacht final to prove a point seems a bit trite when they have a better record in finals recently (3 connachts) and a much better record in Croke park recently. Is a div 2 final 3 years ago supposed to be a bigger test of character than a knockout game v dublin 3 weeks ago?

It reminds me of people saying mayo always bottle tight games when if you look back on our record over 10 years, the amount of close games we've won far exceeds those we've lost. Probably cos we play down to bad opposition but still win!

No doubt, re Aaron McDonnell. Nothing happened. He played well enough v Derry. Got no playing time after that.
He has a chance to impress again, with the intermediate championship coming up..

@rober. Thanks for the update. Ya really was strange we didn't see him again and he togs big which is what we seem to be looking for.

Mayonaze - Your asking what happened players but the fact is not every player has it in them or wants to make the sacrifice of playing senior inter county football. Some lads move away with college/work, enjoy social lives. Move abroad. Life gets in the way.

True Galway have got a decent return in the last decade of underage success but it goes in spells. It was not that long ago Galway were in the doldrums. They will likely make hay though while they have a good team. We don’t

pray for armagh, from a Mayo man living in Galway. Alot of talk, that Galway come alive in Croke park, that that long ago, they went years without a win their. But all forgotten now.

I played against Jarlath's once in a challenge game and recall that they had at least four pitches, although the dressing rooms were fairly antiquated at the time (early 2000s).

St. Gerald's in Castlebar have only one training pitch which is not full-size (it's very narrow), so winning an All-Ireland "B" title and several Connacht "A" championship in the last two decades or so is a serious return on relatively limited resources. No doubt that the discontinuation of boarding in Jarlath's helped, to some extent.

Anyone remember the St.Colmans pitches of the 80's.
The first year pitch with a hill on it (worth 4/5 points).poor goal posts,no nets.
The juvenile pitch...flatter,bit better playing surface but wit a few rocks level with the surface,no nets ...
Senior pitch,level,better playing surface,NETS. ..but you daren't set a toe on it until you were on the senior team. In fact I think we had to genuflect every time we walked by it.
Mmm ,happy days indeed.

A (colour) blind man can see Mayo's problem is physcological. Its got into our heads now that we cant close out tight games and were bottlers and chokers and we lose all Ireland finals. Worse than that our football has become negative now and we are afraid to shoot or take on a shot prefering to recycle the ball. Maybe thats the way we are being coached.

A thought provoker that I think no team would be brave enough to do. Let's imagine the FRC rules come in and it's 4pts for a goal and 2 pts for outside 35m. Plus whatever other rules are with it. Wouldn't it make most sense to play not training games but lots of challenge games.
You get to champiinship group stages and your players have played much more games than typical.
It would be a possible head start to be doing the data based research now on the assumption the rules get in. If you think on it, Jarlath Burns is a popular GAA President, so I'd imagine the core of what was broadcast a few weeks back will get in. With very little prep time I'm utterly convinced the All Ireland winners next year will be the team that best researches and prepares their players to play effectively under the new FRC rules.
We're hardly going to be sitting here in 12 months and only tweaks were approved?

We should have beaten Meath twice in 96, Dublin at least once and Tyrone in 2021. The Tyrone game was the final straw for me so if Galway go and win it fair play to them. They'll have taken their chance!!

We’ve a new pod up on Patreon from last night - Mike and Colm Boyle chatting about club football and Clare’s hurlers too.

@Pullhard the Tyrone defeat really deflated me more than any other. I have a Tyrone friend who messaged me straight after the Kerry game and said we/Tyrone have shown our hand now and Mayo will just be ready us in the final. The frustrating thing was Tryone did the exact same thing to us.

@Glorydays I go back and forth on the phychology debate. Its an easy explaination when everything else fails. There might be something in it but just not sure.

@Swallow Swoops & Mayo Focus I agree on the rule changes point. The team that can adapt quickest to the rule changes will win the All Ireland when they come in. I don't see the 4 point goal rule helping, its might only make teams even more defensive but the 2 point long range might. We need to really practice for that, we should be doing that anyway even at 1 point it's one way of beating the blanket.

Galway winning the All Ireland final the Sam Maguire cup will travel along closed railway lines Western Rail Corridor Galway to Sligo, Athlone to Mullingar, Clifden & Loughrea too as well as New York as there hosting them in the 2025 Connacht football championship. Mayo have 1 year break from overseas in 2025 but will have London in 2026 in the Connacht football championship. In the 2025 Connacht football championship in Roscommon vs London, Galway vs New York the rest of the draw will take place late October or early November along with the redrawn Leinster football championship Munster & Ulster too. Bring back Ireland vs Australia or Railway cup should happen the reopening of the closed railway lines would cut down on traffic jams, road deaths, pollution & car accidents all over the island of Ireland.